Martin Gräßlin

That's a really weird way to look at it. In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/ Gnome did land eglstream support by the way, xwayland as well. I think kde too at some point (not sure about that). Nvidia had a lot of options on the table: - allow nouveau to reclock gpus or, better, collaborate with them so that at least there's one usable driver. - follow the community consensus and go with GBM straight away. Didn't seem to be a problem in the first place as it's what they are doing now. - open source their driver like other manufacturer and be part of mesa. Community had one option: dedicate a lot of time and effort to create a whole code path for nvidia only and having to debug it against a black box driver

It's worth reading this article as well, "Why screen lockers on X11 cannot be secure". I'm not sure how xsecurelock bypasses all of these issues. https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/01/why-screen-lockers-on-x…

It's not "Wayland only", it's just that properly writing new display server-specific features for X11 is very hard compared to Wayland and probably not really worth the added maintenance cost. Check out https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/kwinx11-is-feature-froz…

There are standard ways to write German when only the basic Latin/English alphabet is available, so "ss" for ß. Umluts get a following e: "ae" for ä. See, for example, KDE dev Martin Gräßlin's domain: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/about/

A few posts on the subject of CSDs, by the developer of KWin (he knows his shit): * http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/open-letter-the-issues-w… * http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-c… * http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/follow-up-on-client-side… * http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/11/october-plasma-on-waylan…

OK, great. So Ubuntu only accidentally sent the nasty letter, and didn't mean to offend a lot of people who got offended with the tea party remark. But no addressing of the privacy complaints the fixubuntu site had. And explicitly only apologizing to non-technical critics just reinforces the validity of the complaints that http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/10/thoughts-about-the-open-… had.

I don't know the specifics. Following some links in here and just saw this. http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/

Martin refers to http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1295, I think. He wrote about it in http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/10/thoughts-about-the-open-… It is about the Mir-Support of KWin/KDE (Martin is the current KWin developer) - while KDE doesn't want to support Mir right now, and says it is about technical reasons, Shuttleworth suggested it is a political thing, which Martin didn't like at all. Seems like after his post there were some not so nice reactions. Though the comments on his blog seem to be nice enough, at first glance.

This is also in a similar boat. I'm having a hard time pinning down anything of any serious relevance from the GNOME/GTK side of things, but there is this[1] which shows that they had planned work on Wayland prior to the Mir announcement. It looks like they started actual work on it some time in 2013 which may look like it increased because of Mir, but I would tend to think that's more coincidence based on their prior plans. From the Qt/KDE side of things we have work on QtWayland[2] and work on Plasma/KWin[3]. The former had development increase as work on Wayland continued and follows a general upward trend, especially after Plasma started using it. For the latter, the article covers the timeline pretty clearly. From what I can tell my point still stands, even when talking about support from integrators. [1] https://wiki.gnome.org/Hackfests/WaylandHackfest2012 [2] https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/graphs/code-frequency the spike you see happened Jan/Feb which was prior to the Mir announcement and if you check the number of commits there was no major increase at that time [3] http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/04/the-history-on-wayland-s…

What has this to do with wayland or XFCE? The only major DE that is using client side decorations is gnome. This has been true since 2018: > I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing CSD. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. That’s of course not the case. Nothing in Wayland enforces CSD. Wayland itself is as ignorant about this as X11. [...] In fact we created a protocol (supported by GTK) that allows to negotiate with the Wayland compositor whether to use CSD or SSD. From https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations… Wayland is agnostic, and it's up to the compositor and application to decide what to do while operating under wayland.

There are numerous serious usability issues with the XEmbed tray icons [0], even if you stay on X11 you will eventually want to switch over to the StatusNotifier API [1]. This is supported by KDE, Ubuntu's Appindicator, and I believe XFCE now too. Thanks for your hard work in Budgie BTW. [0]: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/03/system-tray-in-plasma-n… [1]: https://freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/StatusNotifierItem/

For completeness, here is the reply from one of the KDE developers: https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/public-inbox/%3CCAGeFrHA7FyqR24VkOgYO7tf… (It doesn't appear in the thread because it's been forwarded) EDIT: and here is a blog post about EGLStreams from another KDE developer (2016): https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/ Here is a follow-up blog post from the same author (2017): https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2017/10/plasmawayland-and-nvidi… Here are some (technical) discussions on wayland-devel about EGLStreams (2016): https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2016-March/thread… Here are some recent IRC logs from #wayland, also discussing EGLStreams: https://dri.freedesktop.org/~cbrill/dri-log/?channel=wayland&highl…

> My applications share an X11 display, and if I'm not mistaken, they are pretty well isolated from each other. You are probably mistaken. https://github.com/esonn/x11log http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/01/why-screen-lockers-on-x1… You might want to look at qubesos : https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/gui/

Hm, some folks have installed Ubuntu, plugged in monitors, and it works for them. KDE usually screws up when I plug a monitor into my notebook, but Xfce doesn't. It's not a kernel issue. KDE has a guy, he's singlehandedly awesome, yet of course a bit strange when it comes to interacting with mortals, who works on "these" things: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/ And see, that it's NVIDIA that's currently holding back the year of the multi-monitor Linux desktop, because they're not supporting Wayland, like the others (Intel, AMD, Android).

Well, it was buggy until not very long ago: * https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=365455 * https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/07/multi-screen-woes-in-pl… This also was rather annoying and took a long time for distros to catch up: https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-42985 Since Plasma 5.8.x, it's much much better.

We knew its going to take long. Progress is steady though. For example, KDE's Neon project [0] turned Wayland on as default [1] in developer edition. Wayland will slowly crawl into distributions near you. [0] https://neon.kde.org [1] https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/kde-neon-devunstable-sw…

You can read more about Wayland in Plasma 5.7 here https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/06/wayland-in-plasma-5-7/

I believe this blog post http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/01/why-screen-lockers-on-x1… is relevant to the conversation and the key logger part (but I am out of my league to comment about it).

> I don't see why I would care that apps like Blender or Steam have a window frame that looks exactly like the window frames Unless you use blender or steam, or evince (!) with anything other than gnome3 and default theme, that is, and unless any of the many reasons against CSDs resounds for you (as somebody below posted) http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/open-letter-the-issues-w… Sounds very unrealistic, doesn't it?

Of course the good people of KDE will take a stand against the evil corporations and would never ever consider using that vile systemd-logind abomination! http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/10/libinput-integration-in-…

For more info, here is his (Martin's) blog post about it: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/10/thoughts-about-the-open-…

see also: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/ for more details.

It was my understanding that those involved with or in the know about both Wayland and Mir felt that Mir is a project in a very early state of development [0][1] that was started for the wrong reasons [2]. Could you point me to a knowledgeable person who doesn't work for Canonical who mentions that some significant good idea(s) from Mir worked their way into Wayland? :) [0] http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26254.html [1] http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/27327.html [2] http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/

Not going to be integrated in upstream KDE in any case, see [1]. I don't think Gnome devs are particularly sanguine about it either. As for me, I'm waiting for a hypothetical WLMonad. 1: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/

Some more facts about Wayland and client-side window decorations, quoted from here: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/02/client-side-window-decor… - Nothing in Wayland requires them - QtWayland allows Clients to turn them off - KWin as a Wayland compositor will use server side decorations

Calling a fork "hate-driven development" is unproductive. Further, I found the linked dismissal of Trinity[0] to be as personal, misguided, and "hateful" as it accused the Trinity developers of being. [0] http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2012/02/having-a-look-at-the-old…

For the curious, here are arguments on both sides of this: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-c… http://www.hadess.net/2010/05/client-side-windows-and-misconceptions.h…

KDE 4.8 might not have a screensaver either, for completely different reasons. http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/10/new-screen-locker/ (they don't play well with the new compositor)

> If you're willing to fiddle around, there are a few good themes that don't waste so much space. The point of this "first impressions" exercise was to explore the happy path. > It's not just Gnome that does that. There's an entire generation of designers that's cargo-culting mobile designs at the moment. Breeze, KDE's default theme, is equally space-wasting. I would agree with that sentiment, though I didn't want to get into that flame war today. I think a lot of other people have already written extensively on this subject and I don't feel I can contribute anything new. Here are some relevant articles... Several of these are about CSDs, which I think are a big point of contention with respect to the design philosophy of GTK/Gnome 3.X. This list does not include much about the KDE/Qt side, which I'm less familiar with. I would certainly like to expand the side of this list on the "Pro Gnome" side in the interest of a more fair and balanced debate. Pro Gnome 3.x: Client-Side Decorations Initiative - https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/CSD Restyling apps at scale - https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-at-scale/ Introducing the CSD Initiative - https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/ Against Gnome 3.x: Why do we keep building rotten foundations? - https://davmac.wordpress.com/2016/07/05/why-do-we-keep-building-rotten… GNOME (et al): Rotting In Threes -…

I'm well out of my depth here and welcome corrections: Managing and multiplexing access to hardware is a core responsibility of the kernel. When video drivers are implemented in user space as X11 has traditionally done there are a bunch of issues: the program that includes them has to be setuid root to have the right access to the hardware, opening up the possibility of security bugs; only one such program can run at a time; and if something goes wrong in user space, it can bring down the system. The newer kernel subsystem responsible for handling video cards is the Direct Rendering Manager, with the unfortunately confusing acronym DRM. [1] nVidia declined to support DRM in its proprietary driver for quite some time but eventually chose to do so. They have some quibbles with GBM, one of the parts of the kernel API, but they didn't raise them until after the API was implemented in the kernel, was implemented in the AMD and Intel drivers, and had become a dependency for the Wayland reference compositor Weston. They refused to implement GBM and instead implemented their own alternative, EGLStreams, which is far more complicated. The open source world believes this is the wrong architecture and has had a lot of discussion about how to (reluctantly) support it. The current KDE and Gnome approach seems to be to accept patches from nVidia for EGLStreams support [2][3], but not everyone feels the same way. [4] nVidia has implemented DRM already. They could implement GBM if…