v.cx

When people start reflecting on how it's so amazing that 8th graders were once expected to describe the Battle of Quebec, I think about this: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education The math questions? I could have answered them in 8th grade. They're not hard, and they're the only part that's not just memorization.

That could become a loaded policy, one which encourages universities to crank out graduates with those degrees, not necessarily with the expected understanding. [1] I'm not saying its a bad idea, but it draws a somewhat arbitrary line in the sand, one which would eliminate some of the "desirable" immigrants - entrepreneurs that have dropped out and gone on to build amazing companies. [1] A good example can be found here: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education and the associated discussion http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2483976

Great story :) https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

OK, wow, the old guard sure knows how to write sensibly. This is a great article. But I have to disagree with this (because of course I do): >> For example, when I tell Siri “Call Carol” and it dials the correct number, you will have a hard time convincing me that Siri did not understand my request. That is a very common-sense and down-to-earth non-definition of intelligence: how can an entity that is answering a question correctly not "understand" the question? I am going to quote Richard Feynman who encountered an example of this "how": After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn’t know what anything meant. When they heard “light that is reflected from a medium with an index,” they didn’t know that it meant a material such as water. They didn’t know that the “direction of the light” is the direction in which you see something when you’re looking at it, and so on. Everything was entirely memorized, yet nothing had been translated into meaningful words. So if I asked, “What is Brewster’s Angle?” I’m going into the computer with the right keywords. But if I say, “Look at the water,” nothing happens – they don’t have anything under “Look at the water”! https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education In this (in?) famous passage Feynman is arguing that students of physics that he met in Brazil didn't know physics, even though they had memorised physics textbooks. Feynman doesn't talk about "understanding".…

The problem space for computer science algorithms is gigantic and many of these companies testing for this knowledge then immediately throw new engineers onto line of business CRUD apps and bug fixes, which rarely have the engineer implementing any of these algorithms from scratch. A programmer worth his salt should retain enough 1st principles knowledge to not create a O(n^3) bottleneck in production or otherwise stay out of trouble. Unless you have a super targeted problem space that interviewing employees know about Often the specific skills are mentioned up front. It doesn't have to be that targeted, either. Most developers I know just brush on as many algorithms as they can remember when they are going to interview for a new job. Then they just go through interviews until they find a company that manages to pick an algorithm out of the ones they memorized. This speaks more to bad interviewing. It certainly does not mean that such knowledge being worthless and arbitrary. What you want in a candidate, generally speaking, is someone who can actually apply knowledge. What you are describing above is just regurgitation. http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

I can speak to both my own personal experience and anecdotal info, in that I've personally only worked with Chinese engineers who are of the utmost scruples and integrity (even when I don't always agree with their choices from an engineering perspective), but it does seem to be that there is some cultural traction against the kind of mindset we appreciate in the West. But I tend to view it in the context of Feynman's remarks about Brazilians (who I've also had the pleasure of working with and being enlightened by) [0]. Even if there is some cultural resistance, there will always be exceptions, depending how you choose to select from that data. Personally, I value those traits that choose certain value over others. Being right (with the qualification of being right, rather than appearing right) is essential for a good engineer. I don't think any country has a monopoly on good engineers or on bad. The best we can do is engage these like minds and cultivate a shared appreciation of the Good. I think politics (from the education level up) makes it hard to question the cultural norm, I find there are plenty of folks who hold "correctness" a higher value than compliance. All this said as a white guy looking in and lucky enough to have found aligned mentalities among the folks I've worked with. [0] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

I'm afraid that this is because academic math is often taught and tested in a way that rewards memorization rather than understanding. Here's Richard Feynman's take on the problem: https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

There's an interesting bit in "surely you're joking, mr Feynmann" where he is amazed how primary school kids are learning physics. Only, as it turns out, nearly noone in the entire country has any actual understanding of physics, because from elementary school upwards all they do is memorize the material. https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

There's a nice discussion of this in Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! > I discovered a very strange phenomenon: I could ask a question, which the students would answer immediately. But the next time I would ask the question – the same subject, and the same question, as far as I could tell – they couldn’t answer it at all! > Then I say, “The main purpose of my talk is to demonstrate to you that no science is being taught in Brazil!” https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

I am reminded of Feynman's story about teaching physics in one Brazil university, one semester, a few decades ago: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education The students learned to repeat the text of the books, without "understanding" what the books were describing. I'm sure this says something about one side or the other of this conundrum, but I'm not sure which. :-)

> That's because humans don't say things without understanding them. Yeah, about that. https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

This and the Large Language Model AI stuff reminds me of Feynman’s experience teaching in Brazil: “After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn’t know what anything meant.” —http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education I hope curiosity, genuine understanding, and joy remain central for our species. Thank you for your wonderful work and inspiration, Mr. Stoll!

Reminds me of the Feynman story where he goes to Brazil. May be a southern/latin Europe thing? https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

I attended an expensive private school until 6th grade, a typical public school from 6th-8th grade, and did my 'high-school' years at an online school. I learned legitimate skills at the private and traditional public schools. I learned nothing of value at the cyber school. The first two actually focused on developing a concept to the point where it could be applied. Math was one such example. The cyber school was very obviously designed to allow the students to just cheat. As in, literally have the book open in your lap and take the test. If I had gone to the cyber school for my entire education cycle I'd undoubtedly be severely disadvantaged in the same way described by the [0] article (about Feynman )linked in another comment. Parroting facts can get you the job, but it won't help you do the job. [0] https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Compare Feynman (1985): https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education > I discovered a very strange phenomenon: I could ask a question, which the students would answer immediately. But the next time I would ask the question – the same subject, and the same question, as far as I could tell – they couldn’t answer it at all! (He proceeds to discuss the difference between rote learning of phrases and the ability to visualise a physical system and have insights into it. Along with a bonus example of a textbook that includes only one experimental result, which is fake and gives the wrong answer)

> what are good courses for people from these countries to study so that they become more skilled ? Just my opinion, but more doing, less "learning". I've interviewed dozens of Indian candidates at my company, and I've noticed a huge problem: a good 50-60% of them know the jargon and theory, but if you try to probe deeper they don't know what any of it means. It reminded me strongly of Feynman's account of the Brazilian education system[1] Basically, I think serious students need to actually build stuff and gain a deep intuition of the concepts they are learning. There seems to be far too much rote memorization of CS concepts and jargon without deep understanding of the why and the how. [1] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

As a brazilian who has had some education abroad, the most interesting thing Feynman wrote about Brazil was his critique of the education system [1]. I studied chemistry in high school without ever going into a lab. This holds for all classes, even maths: everything was abstract with no real-world applications. Even Portuguese Language classes had this disease: about a dozen rules for diacritics could be simplified as the usual case and the few exceptions, but they were taught as independent rules (making things a lot harder to retain). [1] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Reminds me of an anecdote Richard Feynman had in his book on the Brazilian education system [1]. Basically, the students could memorize crap from books but didn't really comprehend what they were learning, such that when Feynman would ask a question such as "if I hold a glass of water in front of this picture, what will it look like?" they couldn't answer. But if he asked "What is the refractive index of water?" they would answer instantly. [1] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Is this what you're talking about? http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

"Finally, I said that I couldn’t see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, and teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."[1] Sounds a lot like Feynman decrying the Brazilian education system in Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman. [1] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Re: knowing vs understanding, have you read "Richard Feynman on education in Brazil"? http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

This is an interesting question. For some reason, the European scientific culture to question everything and preferring “useful knowledge” apparently did not transfer to Brazil with the Portugese. Here's an excerpt from Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman!, discussing education in Brazil which I think is relevant: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

For some reason, this reminds me of Richard Feynman's comments about science education in Brazil: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education "'I have discovered something else,' I continued. 'By flipping the pages at random, and putting my finger in and reading the sentences on that page, I can show you what’s the matter – how it’s not science, but memorizing, in every circumstance. Therefore I am brave enough to flip through the pages now, in front of this audience, to put my finger in, to read, and to show you.'"

Unfortunately things don't work that way. I am from Brazil for example, here the education laws are extremely rigid: Homeschooling is a crime (literally, if you try to homeschool your kids you are sent to jail), and the curriculum is defined by law and extremely rigid. No matter how much internet you stuff here, as long those laws are enforced, people are forced to have crap education. Feynman article about that (written in the 50s by the way, things got worse since the article was written, not better): http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Feels for you, bro. I don't know if Brazilian education has improved since Feynman wrote this: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education I suspect not by much.

No it's not. See the passage here. (http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education) He's complaining about the fact that they don't really know what they've learned, they've just learned to 'say the right things', specifically because of the way they have been taught. Which is precisely the point I'm making. e.g. "After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn’t know what anything meant."

Interesting you should say that. Richard Feynman on education in Brazil: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education ..and the associated HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2483976

Is this a comparison of wrote memorization vs. pragmatic knowledge? The tech world has seen so much change and new language in the last couple decades it's not surprising function description is more useful than names. Reminds me of this: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Knowing why is extremely important, as Feynman describes in this essay: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Feynman on physics education in Brazil: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education