P
Peter-Paul Koch
quirksmode.org · Personal blog · on HN since 2008
Peter-Paul Koch writes about browser compatibility, mobile browsers, and web standards, and runs the QuirksMode cross-browser reference site.
What HN saysHN commenters recommend QuirksMode as a great resource for cross-browser issues and mention PPK when discussing JavaScript and web development learning.
266HN people shared it
160linked it in comments
191stories submitted
5.2Kstory points
7 months agolast shared
2008people per year2026
Most-shared posts
- 1Homepage12 people · first shared 2008
- 2The Great WebKit Comparison Table11 people · 34 points · first shared 2009 · 11 comments on HN
- 3Compatibility11 people · first shared 2009
- 4Stop pushing the web forward8 people · 573 points · first shared 2015 · 299 comments on HN
- 5The HTML5 drag and drop disaster (2009)8 people · 187 points · first shared 2009 · 71 comments on HN
- 6A pixel is not a pixel is not a pixel (2010)8 people · 27 points · first shared 2010 · 2 comments on HN
- 7Breaking the Web Forward7 people · 20 points · first shared 2021 · 1 comments on HN
- 8New Browser on the Block: Flow7 people · 10 points · first shared 2020 · discussion on HN
- 9CSS - Contents and compatibility6 people · 2 points · first shared 2008 · discussion on HN
- 10W3C DOM methods vs. innerHTML: innerHTML is faster6 people · 2 points · first shared 2009 · 1 comments on HN
- 11Quirksmode5 people · first shared 2010
- 12Tired of Safari4 people · 283 points · first shared 2015 · 120 comments on HN
- 13There are now at least eight Chromium-based Android default browsers4 people · 245 points · first shared 2015 · 122 comments on HN
- 14Tools don’t solve the web’s problems, they ARE the problem4 people · 34 points · first shared 2015 · 8 comments on HN
- 15Making the HTML5 <time> element safe for historians4 people · 21 points · first shared 2009 · 4 comments on HN
What HN people wrote when they linked it
nahreally · 2013-09-21
Why does nobody ever mention HTML Dog? I learned all the basics the right way reading from it, the ideas behind them, and what to avoid. It's a seriously great website (and formerly a book, I think? I was a penniless teenager back when I read it), serving as both a tutorial and reference, and it's been around for a really long time.
http://www.htmldog.com/
For everything else, there's http://www.quirksmode.org/ and Stack Overflow ;)
onteria · 2011-01-10
For those really wanting to learn JavaScript, I also recommend reading the Ecma 262 standard it is based upon:
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-262.htm
It will help you understand how the core of the language works. I also keep the Mozilla Javascript Reference:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Javascript/Reference
handy for looking things up. For the browser compatibility side:
http://www.quirksmode.org/
aaco · 2008-04-02
For introduction to HTML, CSS, JavaScript, HTML DOM, I recommend you visiting the site http://www.w3schools.com/ .
Respectively, you might want to read: Learn HTML, Learn CSS, Learn JavaScript and Learn HTML DOM.
For reference, when I want to remember or search for some specific tag, I'm used to go to http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/ .
And I highly recommend you, when you're a little advanced in your learning, to periodically access Web Devout: http://www.webdevout.net/ . There you can find tables containing browser compatibility elements for HTML, CSS, JavaScript, DOM, articles, really interesting stuff.
Another awesome website I'm used to access, mostly for JavaScript clarifications and techniques: http://www.quirksmode.org/
I think these resources are 95% what I use when I need to figure out something regarding HTML/CSS/JavaScript/DOM and browsers compatibility.
javajosh · 2012-07-11
I really admire Resig, and this post contains a few gems:
1. Knew about PPK[0], didn't know about JZ[1]
2. Feature detection came about from writing this book! Which generalizes too: writing is a great way to innovate (something pg has said, too).
3. A nice little jab at GRRM, who thoroughly deserves it.
4. An exciting glimpse into the future of computer science pedagogy by way of JavaScript in the browser. (And I can't help but wonder if this is an oblique response to the recent Alan Kay Dr. Dobbs interview, where Kay asserts, "The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs."[2])
5. Points out that even the best of us can get stuck in a procrastination loop.
6. Resig is going to finish a JavaScript book [3]
[0] http://www.quirksmode.org/
[1] http://perfectionkills.com/
[2] http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-with-alan-kay…
[3] http://jsninja.com/
pbhjpbhj · 2011-02-07
http://www.quirksmode.org/ is great for cross-browser stuff.
troupo · 2026-01-01
> https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie
Which is of course bullshit
--- start quote ---
The allegation that Safari is holding back web development by its lack of support for key features is not new, but it’s not true, either. Back fifteen years ago IE held back the web because web developers had to cater to its outdated technology stack. “Best viewed with IE” and all that. But do you ever see a “Best viewed with Safari” notice? No, you don’t. Another browser takes that special place in web developers’ hearts and minds.
...even though Chrome is not the standard, it’s treated as such by many web developers.
https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html
--- end quote ---
illiarian · 2023-04-03
"Back fifteen years ago IE held back the web because web developers had to cater to its outdated technology stack. “Best viewed with IE” and all that. But do you ever see a “Best viewed with Safari” notice? No, you don’t. Another browser takes that special place in web developers’ hearts and minds."
https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html
dmitriid · 2023-01-25
Please read "Breaking the Web Forward" https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html
--- sart quote ---
Back fifteen years ago IE held back the web because web developers had to cater to its outdated technology stack. “Best viewed with IE” and all that. But do you ever see a “Best viewed with Safari” notice? No, you don’t. Another browser takes that special place in web developers’ hearts and minds.
--- end quote ---
achairapart · 2021-08-26
It's also worth reading from the same author the update on the same matter: Breaking the web forward[0]
[0]: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html
Brajeshwar · 2021-07-26
We used to loved CSS Quirks Mode (or Strict Mode).
https://www.quirksmode.org/css/quirksmode.html
rikroots · 2020-08-22
> Taking it down would leave us with w3schools
I've long avoided w3schools, but a lot of comments on various HN threads suggest the site has improved a lot over the past few years. If true, this makes me less worried about the future of MDN.
Plus there's other reference sites I find myself using from time to time, for instance Can I Use[1] (which has a Patreon) and QuirksMode[2] (supported by donations). Monocultures, in my view, are not good for the environment - and that includes coding reference sites.
[1] - https://caniuse.com/
[2] - https://www.quirksmode.org/
Permit · 2020-08-21
> Are developers supposed to pay to develop? ridiculous
No. Developers are supposed to pay to access the hard work of the technical writers and developers who maintain MDN. I don't understand why you think it's self-evident that this work should be free.
Here is a longer explanation by the person who created the precursor to MDN: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2020/08/i_love_mdn_or_t.html
Here is the HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24159244
untog · 2020-08-12
Related reading from QuirksMode about MDN: "the cult of the free must die" https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2020/08/the_cult_of_the.html
I think a version of MDN that solicits donations from the companies and individual developers that make use of it could be great. Mozilla being propped up by money Google gave them from the search bar always felt fragile.
hiccuphippo · 2019-09-11
Before caniuse, I remember my goto site was quirksmode[0]. Not only did it had the compatibility tables but also great advice and pages with test for everything.
[0] https://www.quirksmode.org/compatibility.html
frik · 2015-07-28
What's wrong with that site?
quirksmode.org used to be a great resource but it stopped being updated 10 years ago when IE 6 was still the "thing". Nowadays, http://caniuse.com replaced it.
So quirksmode transformed to a rant blog, like this one we had on HN three months ago: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/05/web_vs_native_l.html
Arnt · 2015-02-12
Several other vendors build on that code, including some that don't ship Play Services. See http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/02/counting_chromi.html
Anecdata alert: On my main test phone, Play Services consumed more network/battery than anything else. (Admittedly, I never use that phone for games, phoning or really anything except testing a single app). So I deleted Play Services and its relations, so I could measure my own stuff better.
Battery lifetime improved greatly.
rolux · 2014-04-25
"By the 1st century B.C.E., the Roman calendar had become hopelessly confused."
At least one can treat the years in that period as numbers. For why Roman years before 300 B.C.E. have to be handled as names, not numbers, and should never be used in arithmetic operations, see Peter Paul Koch's excellent essay "Making <time> safe for historians": http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/04/making_time_saf.html
ttflee · 2013-10-18
I guess those dates must be treated with greater caution, as the history and calendar used to be complicated(, not as smooth as UTC time).
http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/04/making_time_saf.html
gavinlynch · 2013-01-18
I agree with the general sentiment, although it is worth pointing out that the idea of a unified "mobile webkit" is a fallacy: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/10/there_is_no_web.html
fruchtose · 2012-11-10
I think the desire for this kind of project is very reasonably based, and it looks like you have done great work on most of the implementation. I have one gripe with it, though.
It would be nice if the documentation mentioned that garlic.js requires an HTML5 browser with localStorage implemented. Remember, there are people who are still using Internet Explorer 6 and 7, and these browsers are incompatible [1]. This is a minor details considering browser marketshare, but a fallback using cookies would be a nice-to-have feature.
Besides that, awesome work!
[1] http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/html5.html#t00
lutusp · 2012-09-10
> A Brief Look at Grid-Based Layouts in Web Design
Yes, most certainly "brief". Somehow the author managed to write the entire article without once showing an example of the HTML/CSS markup one would use to create a grid. Here's a bit more depth:
http://designshack.net/articles/css/rolling-your-own-grid-layouts-on-t…
It turns out that Microsoft has created their own vendor-specific version of grid CSS, all elements of which are prefixed with -ms- (as in -ms-grid). But I recommend that people avoid the vendor variations on the grid system, and I'm not the only one making this recommendation:
http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2010/03/css_vendor_pref.html
EGreg · 2012-02-09
The browser makers should always be compatible with the standard, the new features shouldn't break the expectations of web page creators which they get after reading the standard. http://www.quirksmode.org/
dave1010uk · 2011-09-09
PPK came up with JSON over SMS, which would be a great way for people to use apps with phones (or in countries) that don't support data (including MMS). I guess this is a much bigger problem in developing countries. You can see his slides about this here: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2010/10/fronttrends_sli.html
CWIZO · 2011-04-05
I've submitted this since there are still 151 tickets left, and I can't understand that they haven't been "soled out" already :)
In case you're wondering Peter is the author of the quirksmode blog (http://quirksmode.org)
Samuel_Michon · 2011-03-19
There have been plenty of bugs in Safari which couldn't be reproduced in Chrome, and vice versa.
Also, many mobile platforms have web browsers based on WebKit. Numerous differences can be observed between how these browsers render web pages. See PPK's "The Great WebKit Comparison Table" [0].
[0] http://www.quirksmode.org/webkit.html
samdk · 2010-10-31
I don't think you can really claim "full browser support" with an asterisk that says "assumes latest beta". That's really not helpful when you're trying to figure out if you can actually use something. That said, this is a pretty nice preview of what's coming with CSS3.
(If you are looking for that kind of information, http://www.quirksmode.org/compatibility.html is by far the best resource I've found anywhere online for it, although I don't think it includes all of CSS3.)
adamesque · 2010-10-21
I would be really wary of reading through the w3schools JavaScript guides first. You'll learn programming basics (which, as an experienced developer, you won't need), but not much about what makes JavaScript so interesting. And many of the coding practices you'll see at w3schools are painfully outdated and/or just bad practices.
Basically, if you're reading a JavaScript guide and it mentions document.write(), run away.
The MDC guides are much, much better. And Crockford's book is best.
There are also fantastic explanations of the Event model at PPK's Quirksmode site. Start here and read through all of his Event articles:
http://quirksmode.org/js/events_early.html
superk · 2010-10-16
Great Webkit Comparison Table
http://www.quirksmode.org/webkit.html
samratjp · 2010-08-15
http://www.quirksmode.org/ is pretty good for what you can do with a particular browser and realize its limitations.
Nekojoe · 2010-05-14
For something like that, it's best to read PPK's excellent Quirks Mode site - http://www.quirksmode.org/compatibility.html