Papers, Please!

For those who are interested, there's a blog called "Papers, Please!", run by a group called "The Identity Project", which has been following this trial in some detail: http://papersplease.org "The Identity Project explores and defends the fundamental American right to move freely around our country and to live without constantly having to prove who we are or why we are here."

I love how their "stakeholder" list [1] doesn't include travelers. Just government and air travel industry. This speaks volumes to their mentality. 1: https://papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/biometrics-stak…

There's a site about this issue from the Identity Project, which documents campaigns against ID requirements for travel. http://www.papersplease.org/

This is a very important detail of the whole dreary affair. As surprising as the cause of the whole matter may be, the government after that willfully lied to anyone and everyone, including the judge of the court case, ignored legally binding orders and probably broke several laws. The Paper's Please blog has an excellent timeline of this case: http://papersplease.org/wp/category/papers-please/

You have the right to travel without ID in the U.S. The TSA may demand it, and may tell you it's legally required, but that doesn't make it true. "In fact, the TSA does not require, and the law does not authorize the TSA to require, that would-be travelers show any identity documents. According to longstanding practice, people who do not show any identity documents travel by air every day – typically after being required to complete and sign the current version of TSA Form 415 and answer questions about what information is contained in the file about them obtained by the TSA from data broker Accurint…." https://papersplease.org/wp/2020/05/19/tsa-tries-again-to-im... https://papersplease.org/wp/2024/03/18/buses-trains-and-us-d... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_Unit... ezpz

As of the imposition of start of this new fee/fine, about 200,000 people a day fly without ID or without REAL-ID: https://papersplease.org/wp/2025/05/28/200000-people-a-day-fly-without… - At $45 a pop, that would bring in >$3B a year. "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money."

Around 9% of US citizens 18 or older do not have a non-expired driver's license. It's even more for various minorities [1][2]. [1] https://cdce.umd.edu/sites/cdce.umd.edu/files/pubs/Voter%20ID%202023%2… [2] https://papersplease.org/wp/2024/06/07/who-lacks-id-in-america-today/

Unbelievably disgusting behavior. "Unlike the government of Qatar, however, the US government hasn’t apologized, said that what happened was illegal (or would be illegal if the complaint is proven to be true), or referred the TSA checkpoint staff for investigation and possible prosecution. The TSA hasn’t even tried to dispute the truth and factual accuracy of the complaint. Instead, the TSA has argued that, even if all of the allegations in Ms. Leuthauser’s complaint are true, the TSA and its employees have absolute impunity. Regardless of what “torts”, even rape, TSA checkpoint staff commit against travelers, the government claims that Federal courts have no jurisdiction to hear lawsuits or consider claims against them." https://papersplease.org/wp/2022/12/06/tsa-argues-for-impunity-for-che…

Nowadays there's the question "Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs?" [1]. As late as 2018, they were asking about communist party membership [2] [1] https://www.nnuimmigration.com/esta-questions/ [2] https://papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/DS-0156.pdf

> No one is arguing that the TSA is racist for requiring id to fly. That's because it's not based in reality. https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/04/13/yes-you-can-fly-without-id/ https://www.corporatetravelsafety.com/safety-tips/can-you-fly-without-… In fact, the TSA itself claims you can fly without ID https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

Making sure everyone sees this: https://papersplease.org/wp/ As far as I'm aware, the public has still never gotten a reasonable answer as to through what legal authority the TSA demands this. Yet another loss of liberty thanks to the godforsaken "PATRIOT" Act.

The reason you can fly without any ID (even today - try it) is that feds cannot stop citizens from freely moving in the country (see multiple filings from TSA in various cases, incl, for example, Gilmore v. Gonzales). They do not like acknowledging this but you can do it. The procedure is secret and they refuse to explain it (even to the court), but you can do it. i've done it just to see how it would go a few times. It works. You do need to press them on it a bit. This fee approach will not work for the same reason: it is an impediment to free movement (fee). You can read more here: https://papersplease.org/wp/2015/04/09/why-did-the-tsa-prevent-these-p…

They claim that requiring a REAL-ID to fly is illegal, and link to this PDF (https://papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/IDP-form-415-19… which appears to be a sort of letter from The Identity Project attempting to explain that what the TSA is doing is illegal. So, I don't know if I buy that it matters. If I show up on Oct 2, 2021, without a REAL-ID (i.e., a pre-realID california driver's license, which is what I have because DMV lines are fucked and appointments are fucked too), I think I won't be able to fly, no matter how much I wave a PDF in the face of TSA officials.

Airlines report flights booked directly to security agencies, including new, cancelled, and changed itineraries, with complete customer information. They don't need to hack airlines—the regulatory system has given them what they need. https://papersplease.org/wp/2013/09/29/how-the-nsa-obtains-and-uses-ai… For all we know, all major hotel chains could just be forced to comply with secret injunctions from FISA, and it would still be totally legal, and totally cool.

https://papersplease.org/gilmore/ What I described was the court ruling; its appeal was denied by the US Supreme Court.

Someone posted this, I guess that's how: https://papersplease.org/wp/2013/09/29/how-the-nsa-obtains-and-uses-ai…

And this kind of thing isn't even a one-off, the "administrative decisions" for the TSA no-fly list are scarily similar -- even after they were supposedly knocked down as unconstitutional in 2014. http://www.papersplease.org/wp/2015/04/16/feds-change-no-fly-procedure…

I'm one of the subjects of the article. Regarding the 2009 incident at ABQ: I was acquitted of all criminal charges by a jury in 2011. The trial ran two days, during which I did not testify and presented no evidence. Bizarrely, the prosecution presented the [video I made of the incident](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc5DBUK1K8M) (that he police erased and I recovered) as evidence against me. The jury deliberated just one hour to reach their decision. Later that year, I filed a related civil rights lawsuit. March of this year, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals heard arguments on dismissal of that suit. There's no set timeline for a response from the court. For details, see: - [FAQ: State of New Mexico v. Phillip Mocek](http://papersplease.org/wp/mocek/) - [FAQ: Phillip Mocek v. Albuquerque et al.](http://papersplease.org/wp/mocek2/)

You do not need ID to fly intrastate within the US: http://www.papersplease.org/wp/2015/04/09/why-did-the-tsa-prevent-thes… However, you do need explicit pre-approval from the US DHS to fly, through the Pre-Crime surveillance and control regime of Secure Flight: http://papersplease.org/wp/2014/09/22/gao-audit-confirms-tsa-shift-to-…

Very welcome news. I hope it will have a positive impact on cases like http://www.papersplease.org/wp/category/freedom-to-travel/

Well, in many cases there is no crime. Given the ridiculous amount of people on the list and the way the form is designed, a large number will be on there due to a "mistake" in filling out the form. Theres an excerpt of the form here: http://papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/vgtof-form.png Notice how you have to check the box to indicate someone is not to be added to the list. It is completely counter-intuitive. I'd say it is just badly designed, but we're far beyond innocent mistakes here, at this point there needs to be judicial and personal responsibility for the people involved in its creation and ongoing maintenance.

Since the mercurynews article didn't cover it, be sure to read the article where the plaintiff's daughter, a US citizen, was prevented from entering the US to testify at the trial.[1] [1]: http://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/07/no-fly-trial-day-5-part-2-what-h…

The judge is William Alsup, who also handled the Google-Oracle case. This should be fun. EDIT: Judge Alsup wasn’t willing to take any action today on unproven allegations or unverified documents. But he made clear that, “I am disturbed by this…. We’ll hear from her [Ms. Mustafa Kamal] when she gets here. If it turns out that the DHS has sabotaged a witness, that will go against the government’s case. I want a witness from Homeland Security who can testify to what has happened. You find a witness and get them here.” http://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/04/no-fly-trial-day-2-dr-ibrahim-ge…

Actually the USA does have secret laws. Ask for the law requiring ID to travel. Nobody will show it to you. A decade ago an activist sued to try to see it, the case went to the 9th circuit, and he lost. Without being allowed to see the law. See http://papersplease.org/gilmore/ for verification.

It is true that if you simply don't have proper ID -- your wallet was stolen, for example -- it's still possible to fly; I think this involves going through the "heightened" pat-down screening. But you are correct that rant-ish reports posted on sketchy web sites that make broad assertions of constitutional law are generally good sources of entertainment, but not legal advice. John Perry Barlow (of EFF fame) litigated this issue in late 2006. He lost at every step. What came out of that is that the TSA does indeed have a written regulation requiring you show government ID, but that regulation is secret. Info on his litigation is at http://papersplease.org/gilmore/

Unfortunately, the way the system is structured, once enough states are compliant then mandating the uploading ALL DLs to the system (Real ID or not) becomes possible without additional legislation. See https://papersplease.org/wp/2016/02/11/how-the-real-id-act-is-creating… > States aren’t (yet) required to upload pointers for noncompliant licenses or ID cards. There’s been no explicit announcement of the full live launch of S2S, but it appears that the first states are only beginning to use S2S (other than as a pilot project) this month. The DHS isn’t (yet) considering whether states have complied with the database access provisions of the REAL-ID Act when it makes its discretionary decisions whether to certify “material” compliance or “progress” toward compliance. But AAMVA, which determines the SPEXS standards, could add a requirement for upload of pointers for all licenses and IDs, not just “compliant” ones, to its specifications for system participation at any time. And the DHS will eventually have to assess actual compliance with the REAL-ID Act, not mere progress toward it. At that point, any state that wants to use S2S and SPEXS as the basis for a compliance finding will have to upload pointer records for all licenses and ID cards it has issued — even noncompliant or “opt-out” licenses or IDs. This has the effect of creating a private national ID database, without transparency or accountability, which is kind of a worst-case scenario. (AAMVA…

> While the article says “many jurisdictions,” and I cited only one specific jurisdiction, the onus is on the claimant to prove that there are, in fact jurisdictions that prohibit security exceptions. It’s unlikely that security exemptions don’t exist in every relevant executive order, yet the article requires accepting that premise in order to make the claim that this is “illegal.” The beginning of the sentence you quoted has a link to the information you're looking for but it seems the quote you've pulled has cut that off. The word "noted" in "As we’ve noted previously" is a hyperlink pointing here[1] which itself links to an example order[2] that doesn't contain any such exception. [1]https://papersplease.org/wp/2020/06/08/tsa-to-take-mug-shots-of-domest… [2]https://www.smchealth.org/sites/main/files/file-attachments/ho_order_c…

>or on punishing foreigners who say inconvenient things I wonder how many people are/will be affected by current DHS policy…[0]. Also like another comment here said, with the passage of the CLOUD act (which mostly legalizes behavior that of which was already being engaged in), the US can get foreign powers to act on their behalf if they so choose. As an US citizen who has been living abroad for almost two years now, I'm not here to point out equivalencies, but state that technology will be leveraged by those who see fit regardless of the country or if one believes in their "foremost defender of the modern rules-based order". >This difference is essential. Only if one believes it to be so (and I suspect many people do), though the ones who seem to suffer most will be the poor and the marginalized, and will continue to be so long after when the war drums eventually stop and the battles breakout… [0] https://papersplease.org/wp/2018/01/05/new-dhs-policy-on-demands-for-p…

> If it took a powerful senator weeks or months to fix the problem, I knew it was hopeless for us mere mortals. I see there've been a few references to the no-fly list and Judge Alsup, in this discussion, but I find this quote to be pertinent enough to warrant highlighting: "At this point, Judge Alsup interrupted to ask a hypothetical question about the process. Suppose there’s some wrong information in a file that suggests that someone is a Communist, and as a result they get put on a watchlist. They apply for redress, and say, “I’m good person. I’ve never done anything wrong.” If they don’t know that they’re on the watchlist because they have been accused of being a Communist, how do they know to say, “And by the way, I’m not a Communist”? “I can see that DHS TRIP would clear things up in the case of misidentification.” But how does the TRIP process allow the aggrieved party to address the secret information. “How does a person know that there is an improper reason that they would need to try to rebut?”" Taken from the summary at: http://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/07/no-fly-trial-day-5-part-1-closin… Discussed on hn: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6868845