The Code Whisperer
blog.thecodewhisperer.com · Personal blog · on HN since 2011
J. B. Rainsberger writes on test-driven development, software design, and consulting for programmers.
What HN saysCommenters recommend his "Integrated Tests Are a Scam" as a counterpoint on testing, and recommend him as a consultant and change agent.
31HN people shared it
12linked it in comments
24stories submitted
84story points
3 years agolast shared
2011people per year2026
Most-shared posts
- 1Beware the Integrated Tests Scam (2023)11 people · 5 points · first shared 2016 · 1 comments on HN
- 2The Eternal Struggle Between Business and Programmers2 people · 28 points · first shared 2013 · 22 comments on HN
- 3TDD: You're Probably Doing It Just Fine2 people · 8 points · first shared 2024 · discussion on HN
- 4Homepage2 people · first shared 2013
- 5TDD: For Those Who Don't Know How to Design Software1 people · 10 points · first shared 2024 · discussion on HN
- 6No More Boilerplate Code1 people · 8 points · first shared 2016 · 1 comments on HN
- 7Integrated Tests Are A Scam1 people · 5 points · first shared 2014 · 7 comments on HN
- 8How TDD Affects My Designs1 people · 4 points · first shared 2014 · discussion on HN
- 9Stop. Write a learning test.1 people · 3 points · first shared 2011 · discussion on HN
- 10When Subclasses Are Ready to Die1 people · 2 points · first shared 2017 · discussion on HN
- 11Which Kinds of Tests Should I Write? Revisited1 people · 2 points · first shared 2023 · discussion on HN
- 12The Curious Case of Tautological TDD1 people · 2 points · first shared 2014 · discussion on HN
- 13What Is Refactoring?1 people · 1 points · first shared 2022 · discussion on HN
- 14Putting an Age-Old Battle to Rest (2013)1 people · 1 points · first shared 2018 · discussion on HN
- 15Beyond Mock Objects1 people · 1 points · first shared 2013 · discussion on HN
What HN people wrote when they linked it
masklinn · 2013-11-17
> Technical know-how doesn't by itself qualify someone to help you implement changes towards becoming more effective. It can be detrimental, in fact.
Yeah I'm well-aware of that.
> One I recommend wholeheartedly is JB: http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/ (and if you can't get him, try to find someone like him).
Thanks for the suggestion.
Morendil · 2013-11-17
> How did you go around to finding him?
If you're going to shop around for a change agent, I recommend reading Jerry Weinberg's "Secrets of Consulting"; although this is targeted at consultants rather than their clients, it can provide useful insight into how to create an effective working partnership with one.
Technical know-how doesn't by itself qualify someone to help you implement changes towards becoming more effective. It can be detrimental, in fact.
But someone with a solid grasp of the fundamentals AND a productive attitude to coaching/mentoring/consulting can be a great asset. One I recommend wholeheartedly is JB: http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/ (and if you can't get him, try to find someone like him).
Dangeranger · 2019-01-31
As a counter point to this opinion of Kent's, who I respect greatly, I'd like to propose J. B. Rainsberger's article:
"Integrated Tests Are A Scam" with presentation of the same name.[0]
[0] https://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/permalink/integrated-tests-are-a-sca…
timclark · 2018-01-24
The article linked from here on integrated tests, http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/permalink/integrated-tests-are-a-scam is also well worth reading.
phiggy · 2014-01-04
I think the point is something like "don't unit test the system as a whole". Black box testing is great and most definitely should be used, but should be kept very high level and unit tests should be kept very small and granular.
The author has several other articles on the subject that I have not read yet, so I'm not sure if I've got a full understanding of his point yet: http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/blog/categories/integrated-tests-are-…
douche · 2016-02-06
A graphic I found very enlightening in the past year is here: http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/images/age_old_battle/virtuous_cycle.…
from this blog post: http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/2013/12/07/putting-an-age-old-battle-…
There's a lot of other good stuff there too, when you start digging through the archives.
Generally, I find that I've got to build a prototype first, which is quick and dirty and ugly, but works. Then iterate as the structure emerges. Some things stay in flux, and it's okay to leave them messier, but eventually the code and functionality settles out and commonality arises. Quite often, I don't necessarily know what I'm doing going in; I've got a general goal, but until I experiment a bit, the best way to get there is unclear.
One of the joys and pitfalls of a multi-paradigm language like C# is that there are so many different ways to skin a cat. You can pick and choose procedural, object-oriented, functional, or some bastard mishmash of all of the above and more.
teddyh · 2023-07-09
> Tests should mostly be integration, not unit.
Other people disagree: <https://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/series#beware-the-integrated-tests-s…
In short (IIUC), integration tests do not give you any feedback on when your design needs to change, while unit tests do.
markmaglana · 2022-02-19
JB Rainsberger would like a word with you :-)
https://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/permalink/integrated-tests-are-a-sca…
sealor · 2020-07-11
I use Learning Tests for such situations.
https://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/permalink/when-to-write-learning-tes…
(not fully read by me but seem to explain this technique very well)
mpweiher · 2019-01-31
Counterpoint: Integrated Tests are a Scam
https://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/permalink/integrated-tests-are-a-sca…
I found that argument more convincing, and it also aligns better with my experience.
The point about 100% coverage not being a good goal is pretty solid.
mdpopescu · 2017-08-26
I believe Microsoft's Pex [1] is an attempt to generate all the unit tests automatically. You can't do that with integration tests, because their number grows exponentially with the number of paths in the code [2].
[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/pex-and-moles-isolati…
[2] http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/permalink/integrated-tests-are-a-scam
joneholland · 2016-07-06
JB says it better than I can:
http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com/permalink/integrated-tests-are-a-scam
https://vimeo.com/80533536